I've come up with a classification for the origin of civic disagreements, at least for the good faith disagreements. Other disagreements have an origin in deception and manipulation and I don't include those here.
I've seen disagreements because of the following:
1. Different Facts. Citizens who disagree may do so because they have different knowledge of the situation. This is the easiest to resolve if all parties are working in good faith.
2. Analytical Differences. Citizens can disagree because they come to different conclusions about how different processes or alternatives will turn out. This is the most interesting root of disagreements. These require respectful inquiry and testing of ideas to be conducted in order for all those involved to be satisfied that the analysis is sound and complete. It also requires all citizens to be open to the evaluation of all the relevant outcomes.
Some citizens see the evaluation of certain outcomes as counter to their personal values, but doing the analysis is not the same as making the final decision. It is my opinion that we should not incorporate value judgments directly into the analytics and the selection of what to study is part of the analytical process. This is where we get to the third origin.
3. Different Values. Judgments based on values are going to differ in a diverse, independent-minded, and thoughtful community. We see this all the time in Encinitas. At the project level, it is clear to me that engaging in disagreements based in value judgments are only useful for developing understanding. I've not seen people engage in successful persuasion (at the project level) that changed what others' valued. It is just the opposite. People end up getting very emotional and polarized when exposed to people who have different value judgments on a project AND the groups try to change each other's value systems.
Most of the time residents of Encinitas can be very tolerant and respectful of others. We can find unfortunate exceptions here on this blog.
I found a similar classification system and some things to do to clear up the disagreements at makingitclear.com . Here is the alternate classification:
Why Do We Disagree?
1. Objective
What one person wants to accomplish is different than what the other person wants.
2. Method
They may agree on the objective, but they have differing opinions on the best way to achieve the objective.
3. Communication
They may agree on both the objective and the method, but they don’t realize it. They keep arguing, and because of miscommunication they each get the impression that the other person disagrees.
4. Emotion
They may agree on the objective and the method, and they may even understand that they agree on these things. But they choose to disagree anyway (or at least one of them does). There are a lot of possible emotional reasons: everything from distrust, dislike and hate, to embarrassment, fear, peer pressure, face-saving or just a steadfast commitment to a prior position.
Relation to the Streetscape Project
I met with planning staff a couple weeks ago to review the project and ask some questions. I still have some questions that have not been answered. Mostly, I was interested in the process.
As was conveyed to me, the workshops have not been designed to develop a set of alternatives and a catalog of their characteristics, so that the public and the council can pit each alternative up against each other. They could then weigh the benefits and drawbacks of each alternative. Instead, the process is working toward the selection of a single "consensus" plan. It was not clear what defines and who decides whether a particular plan has a consensus behind it.
It was also made clear that not having a single consensus plan could jeopardize the progression of the streetscape project. I think this might be why some community members and blog commenters or so upset by anyone who is against (or questions) the leading alternative.
I support a streetscape as do most Leucadians and I hope that we don't let the process devolve into a "my way or the highway" scenario.
Our city has a history of manipulating the process to a single desired outcome. Workshops and hearing are held, sometimes followed, but often ignored or carefully controlled to give the result it wants.
ReplyDeleteRight now there are two projects which exhibit this propensity of our city: North 101 Leucadia Streetscape and the Cardiff Specific Plan. Peder Norby is involved in both. It seems that he is guiding the process toward a certain outcome. Not necessarily bad, but the problem is that the public is resisting.
The solution is not to stifle public participation and demonize the opposition because the desired outcome is not being supported. The city threw more money at both projects for paid consultants. The aim wasn't to reach a compromise, but to push harder for the desired outcome.
If a consensus can't be reached, perhaps it's time to shelf the projects or shrink them to what the public can agree on. The rest can always be brought back at a later time, if there is merit in them.
The railway pedestrian tunnels is a good example where the public resisted, but the city pushed ahead anyway. The project should have been shelved.
Excellent post!
ReplyDeleteAnon 10:00,
ReplyDeleteIn summer of 2006 the city floated the idea of hiring an information officer and JP posted one of his greatest posts.
http://www.theleucadiablog.com/2006/05/encinitas-minister-of-misinformation.html
The city council is getting tired of getting nuked for doing and saying goofy things. An Encinitas Minister of Misinformation would be a great help for them.
"More traffic is less traffic."
"The city budget is healthy and strong and increases in fees are unrelated."
"Our polls done by highly paid consultants that found that residents want to pay more taxes are accurate and worth the money. All our propositions are defeated because of a handful of malcontents and grouches."
"Leucadia floods because God is angry with you and not because the company we hired screwed up the drainage fix."
The idea of hiring an information officer went over badly and six months later the city came up with the idea hiring Norby to work with the public and interest groups along the coast.
Now Norby is your friendly neighborhood coast 101 information officer and the personal assistant to the merchants.
There is a group that wants 1o1 to be improved. Hopefully a majority of residents of the Leucadia area and those who travel on 1o1. All of us want landscaping with lots of trees and to save the eucalyptus we have now. But in this group are those who want roundabouts and single lanes and those who oppose them. Those who are in favor of them seem to have the full power of city staff and the consultants on their side. I think the plan could be realized without these roundabouts and please or at least not anger the rest of us. I also want to keep the northbound side of the road along the tracks free of parking as it makes it much more scenic. Solana Beach doesn't allow parking northbound nor do we between Pipes and Swami's.
ReplyDeleteI don't like and will usually disagree with someone who lives somewhere else telling me what is best for my town. They won't have to traverse this stretch of road the rest of their lives like I will. This includes the majority of staff as they are not from around here. I've been to three of these meetings and it seems like we are just being worn down so that with each successive presentation we will just give up causing staff to declare victory for a plan the majority don't want.
I just can't see the logic of roundabouts and see them transforming Funky Leucadia into something else that most of the people I talk to dislike.
Kevin-
ReplyDeleteNice post. Unfortunately many people including myself get frustrated by the ignorance and lack of desire to learn, irrational logic, and inability to understand the truth.
Posts such as 753 and Lynn insult logic and common sense.
Process should be about learning from past mistakes, reason, and achieving positive outcomes. Not about BS.
"Those who are in favor of them seem to have the full power of city staff and the consultants on their side."
Instead of this shortsighted statement like this, You might open your mind and think, "people that evaluated the options clearly see the option that provides the greatest quality of life for the our residents at the least cost."
Your argument posts are good. Unfortunately, many of us get tired of the same mistruth (lies) and lack of common sense and just plain fear of change.
The perfect example is when people say "roundabouts suck" with no explanation why they think they suck. People that promote roundabouts have clearly explained their advantage over any other intersection alternatives numerous times.
I think people with lack of common sense Suck.
I welcome the streetscape. Keep the dynamics of a highway on I5. I hope we can get a beautiful well functioning mainstreet. The current Highway is an unsafe, ugly, loud, dustbowl which is bad for quality of life in Leucadia.
Let the naysayers and people freaked about by any change, clearly explain why their points make sense. If they have merit, people with common sense would understand their point and would likely agree with them.
Your point about changing peoples positions holds a lot of truth. So I will just stick to my belief that “no- reason” naysayers and the anti change clan are bad for Encinitas IMHO. There is nothing wrong with change for the better. I am glad there are more people with common sense than nonsense.
We have had over two years of process and review on this streetscape, its time to finalize a plan and start planting some trees with irrigation.
Don't measure the process by the length of time. That is a classic control point. What has been done could have been done very easily in 6 months. It has been purposely dragged out with intermittent action. If you don't like how long it is taking demand that the delays and foot dragging end.
ReplyDeleteYes, I feel the delays are a tactic used to be able to make is seem like decisions have been done with great deliberation.
We waited how long for alternative 5 but they don't have alternative 5 visuals at the same quality as alternative 4? What has the city been doing?
2:53-
ReplyDeleteAddress some valid points. Geeze. Whats your point about the streetscape?
753,
ReplyDeleteA couple things about parking on the east side of L101. There are no businesses on the west side of 101 between Pipes and Swami's. The L101 business, especially the restaurants, could use some more parking, and I would think the residents west of 101 would rather have the extra cars park on the east side of the road.
As for the general plan to improve the L101, the vast majority do support the "reforestation" and sidewalking. What I don't get is why people would get "angry" if roundabouts are part of the plan. The benefits are numerous and the drawbacks are few.
Anon 1:44,
ReplyDeleteYou do realize that your tired "scared of change" meme was ENTIRELY INVENTED IN YOUR MIND and runs directly counter to good faith discussions as described in the post? BTW, That point is neither "rational" nor commonsensical. It's condescending.
Out of curiosity, in the spirit of full-disclosure, do you have any financial incentive to support the Birdrockification of Leucadia? (That's not necessarily a bad thing, just a think that should be disclosed.)
Karrsic-
ReplyDeleteIf you’re referring to the City's N. Coast Hwy 101 Streetscape, I do have a financial interest. I own a home on Hygeia.
Every Leucadian has a financial interest. More walkable communities are more desirable places to live, have a higher quality of life, and therefore command higher property values. Is there anything wrong with that?
Do you want Leucadia properties to go down in value?
Karrsic,
ReplyDeleteYour use of the term "Birdrockification" is pretty stupid. Bird Rock is Bird Rock and Leucadia 101 is Leucadia 101. Roundabouts will not turn L101 into anyplace else.
And for the record, I don't own any property on L101. However, I do walk there frequently, dine at Robbies and Papagayos, drink coffee at the Panniken, and look forward to slower traffic and safer crossings at the side streets, which will be the case with roundabouts.
More examples of discussion decorum. In my comment, I said "that's not necessarily a bad thing." Did you see that part?
ReplyDeleteNice argument, A.J., full of rationality and common sense. Let's see, what should I say to bring the discussion to your level: takes stupid to know stupid?
BTW, what do you think Birdrock used to look like, say 40 years ago?
Karrsic,
ReplyDeleteYour "that's not a bad thing" was clearly about whether 1:44 had financial incentive for their position. "Birdrockification" is a pejorative reference, no matter how you want to spin it now. But L101 will never be Bird Rock and the only thing around here that is like it was 40 years ago, it's L101, sans many trees and much heavier with traffic.
OK, so I retract my suggestion that you are "stupid" and will say you instead are noncommonsensical.
"More walkable communities are more desirable places to live."
ReplyDeleteIf you weren't born here you made a free choice to move here. I'm sorry someone forced you to move here.
We think Leucadia is desirable now and will continue to be desirable. I'm sorry you didn't move someplace that you like and don't appreciate what we have.
Why are you so afraid of moving to the city? Why are you so afraid of moving to Birdrock? Please don't be afraid of change. I wasn't afraid of change and that is why I moved into Leucadia.
KEEP LEUCADIA UNIQUE and not superficial and trendy like Birdrock.
There are spectacular smart growth, high density condos for sale in Birdrock right now.
http://www.livingwestof5.com/La+Jolla/Seahaus.htm
AJ,
ReplyDeleteI'll just accept that you're feelings were hurt re:
"birdrockification." I'm sorry about that, but I'm guessing you know what the word is supposed to represent. I will accept that your ad hominem "stupid" and "noncommonsensical" comments substitute for arguments. You have an airtight case in your head, no doubt.
BTW, knowledge of financial incentive for a particular position is relevant whether from owning a home or business lot. Not everyone will benefit, yet everyone will pay for it, right?
While it's quite obvious that Leucadia has not received its fair share over the years, that doesn't mean "anything goes."
Being involved in the "workshops" for the Hall property and Scripps, I can endorse the observation that the neighbors' opinions are not considered. For example, the Scripps' summary of its workshops deliberately left out points made by the neighbors and failed to address the points it did report. The City did the same. Furthermore, the City does delay, obfuscate and ignore so that their desired result is ultimately implemented due to loss of interest and lack of time on behalf of those who have valid points. Certain City interests monitor this blog and many of the devisive and ad hominen attacks are posted by them. It is a testament to the tenacity and commitment of our citizens that they refuse to be silenced and refuse to be railroaded. As for the streetscape, a consensus of the neighborhood will not necessarily be helpful as the Hall property debacle demonstrated, however, should there be a divide then you can bet the City will pick the alternative that makes the most friends for Stocks and Dalager.
ReplyDeleteKevin, understand those that oppose the streetscape, opposes ALL CHANGE TO LEUCADIA!!! ALL CHANGE TO LEUCADIA!! That's why it's an all or nothing deal, my way or the highway. They opposed the new sidewalks, the flowers in the center median and they oppose the slowing of traffic and more parking also.
ReplyDeleteStuck in the past they are dinosaurs, soon to be extinct, but not soon enough.
Support the streetscape.
Support Leucadia.
Support roundabouts.
Karrsic,
ReplyDeleteNo hurt feelings here. Calling me stupid wouldn't matter either. My argument is that roundabouts are good. Suggesting you are stupid, which most of your comments have demonstrated, has nothing to do with the benefits of roundabouts, which is based on fact.
I agree with 4:27: Everyone in Leucadia has a financial interest in getting the best streetscape on L101. In fact, I would argue that all of Encinitas benefits, contrary to your suggestion otherwise.
Nobody is arguing for "anything goes". But you seem to prefer "nothing goes".
11:10
ReplyDelete"I also want to keep the northbound side of the road along the tracks free of parking as it makes it much more scenic."
First of all, you'll be happy to learn (from the easy three links below that are bird's eye visuals of the Streetscape) that there is NOT ONE additional parking space provided in the Alternative #4 for the east side of 101. Personally, I think that is a mistake, as there are 2 miles of parking potential being ignored. And of course I don't mean 2 miles of solid parked cars, just PLENTY of areas that can support a few extra parking spaces. But just because I think it would be better to add some parking on that side of 101 by no means indicates I'd want to "shelf" or stall the Streetscape process in any way.
Sure, less cars make a corridor more scenic like Solana Beach's east side of 101 as you mentioned. But they had a lot more to work with than we, like
* 50 more feet of linear property
to landscape.
* No scorched earth in their face.
* No visible railway.
* No railway lords clear cutting
trees from their scenic hwy with
no mitigation.
"Solana Beach doesn't allow parking northbound nor do we between Pipes and Swami's."
What's so scenic about the east side of 101 between Pipes and Swami's? Dirt clods, gravel, tumble weeds, goat head thorns and idling locomotives on the second track with gang graffiti?
"I just can't see the logic of roundabouts..."
You must never have had to make a left turn onto the highway from side streets. Roundabouts can keep traffic safely flowing at (at least) three of those intersections, especially at Grandview. Currently, backed up cars there several times a day are a drag, traffic moves way to fast there on the hwy to be safe and visibility is poor.
"Solana Beach doesn't allow parking northbound nor do we between Pipes and Swami's."
Not long ago from Pipes to Swami's used to be 4 lanes and is now only two. That change was done with absolutely no public input. Has that caused congestion problems? No. Did it add more room for pedestrians and bike lanes? Yes. Can a city decrease lanes, add roundabouts, lower speeds, and actually get more cars through town more safely in less time? According the track record of Peltz in other cities, most certainly. Can roundabouts add months to your life? Add up the hours you wait at stop lightsevery month. I promise you'll have more than enough time to do that while you're waiting for your green lights. Take the number of hours you have to wait each month, then times it by thousands of other drivers each month and it soon becomes lifetimes wasted at stop lights / signs.
I'd like to see the Streetscape go forward with alternative plan #4 and keep obstructionists from throwing the baby out with the bath water. The longer we wait, the less trees we'll see here. That's for sure.
http://www.ci.encinitas.ca.us/NR/rdonlyres/D8157B49-6CE8-4053-99D4-15112FD61377/0/A41large.jpg
http://www.ci.encinitas.ca.us/NR/rdonlyres/582A837B-F5A8-4477-8307-E16D03DEF58D/0/A42large.jpg
http://www.ci.encinitas.ca.us/NR/rdonlyres/5CE9C2AF-3E0D-44FE-8124-31F3F9944EE7/0/A43large.jpg
"you seem to prefer..."
ReplyDeleteagain, completely invented inside your head.
"based on facts"
you have stated *nothing* factual.
"roundabouts are good"
is not an "argument," it's an opinion.
"contrary to your suggestion otherwise"
the context was financially benefit.
C'mon big guy, try and keep up.
The majority of us don't want roundabouts and can see through the excuses that are given trying to get them implemented. If they were so great we absolutely would not be the first to install them along 1o1 in North County. I think most who are in favor are from somewhere else and want to change the area just to say they had a hand in it. If the change turns Leucadia worse they will just move again trying to find their Eden.
ReplyDeleteI'm not selling and hope property values go down so as more ordinary folks can move in and the elitist go away.
"If (roundabouts) were so great we absolutely would not be the first to install them along 1o1 in North County."
ReplyDeleteWhy exactly is that? Encinitas was the FIRST North County city to win the Great American Streetscape Award for it's renovation/restoration of downtown. Should we not have proceeded with improvements downtown because it hadn't been done that well before?
"I'm not selling and hope property values go down so as more ordinary folks can move in.."
Good to know your motivation for extinguising the Streetscape. Guess I've been pounding my head against a wall. Be well anyway, 753. And your majority of like minded property owners who'd rather see their property values decline than recieve adjacent needed public improvements. May you and your ilk not hit a pothole while riding your bike, nor a car door carelessly swing open into your bike lane. Oh I forgot, there is no southbound bike lane on North Coast Hwy 101. Maybe instead of a bike lane they should just put "ride a bike at your own risk" signs.
People want different things for Leucadia. Some want Leucadia to be gentrified. Some want Leucadia to be like Bird Rock. Some want it to stay like it is and everybody want keep the trees except the council majority who let the tree canopy die and get chopped down.
ReplyDeleteI think the point of Kevin's post was I should not be upset with other people for not wanting the same thing as ME.
Karrsic,
ReplyDeleteWhat does the word "seem" mean to you, as in "you seem to prefer nothing goes"? I've not invented anything, as the word "seem" infers. You might want to eat some of those red herrings you're throwing around.
Keeping up with you isn't difficult because all you do is put parts of what I write in quotes and make comments that have nothing to do with my original meaning. That's pretty stupid. Why don't you try bringing something original to the conversation?
"BTW, knowledge of financial incentive for a particular position is relevant whether from owning a home or business lot. Not everyone will benefit, yet everyone will pay for it, right?"
ReplyDeleteWrong. Every Encinitas citizens and property owner benefited from the Downtown Streetscape Project and all Citizens will benefit from the N. Coast Hwy101 streetscape. Its not only financial, we all will benefit from quality of life.
"KEEP LEUCADIA UNIQUE and not superficial and trendy like Birdrock." some funny comments.
You might consider Birdrock, La Jolla, Pebble Beach, Laguna Beach, Santa Barbara and all those cool small towns up along the coast near Monterrey Trendy
You might consider Oxnard, Pismo, Vista, and LA Beaches Unique.
I would take your trendy over your unique any day.
"People want different things for Leucadia." Hence the workshops.
Just because you have an opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree with you. I understand your points and your desire to keep Leucadia Hwy101 a crappy unsafe dust bowl so property values and rents along that strip stay well below what they should be if it wasn't so bad. I think your ideas are stupid. Hence the debate and people vetting all their opinions.
AJ
ReplyDeleteI'm just commenting on your inanity. All the red herrings are yours, not mine, since I'm only commenting on what you have *actually said.* You haven't made any arguments, have not presented any facts, are acting emotionally and not rationally. Did you read the blog post? LOL.
"Seem" means that you are making a (lame) inference of what I've said. Problem is, I never said (or even implied) I was against the streetscape. Rationally speaking, saying that "anything goes shouldn't be the rule of the day," does not imply its opposite, "nothing goes." Come on now, AJ, this is basic logic.
"have nothing to do with my original meaning."
You're hilarious. You get to infer things based not on what I say. But if I comment directly on what you say, in context, and provide quotes to show the way, you object.
You're new to this argument-thing, aren't you?
753-
ReplyDelete"The majority of us don't want roundabouts and can see through the excuses that are given trying to get them implemented."
who are you referring to "us"? The retarded group of residents like Lynn?
You clearly aren't the majority of people I talk to regularly.
I think you are delusional. I know you are wrong.
Kevin C-
ReplyDeleteNice post and you hit the nail on the head. I think the streetscape boils down to your first point why people argue and disagree on the Streetscape.
Why Do We Disagree?
1. Objective
What one person wants to accomplish is different than what the other person wants.
Clearly we see at least two opinions have formed.
1. There are those that support the streetscape, want to better Leucadia and support Alternative 4.
2. There are those that opposed any mention of change, want to keep Leucadia Mainstreet crappy and unsafe as to keep property values and rents down. They freak out at any proposed change saying its going to gentrify Leucadia.
Look around all the Neighborhood with the exception of adjacent to Hwy101, The homes have been improved throughout the last 40 years and most look unique funky and beautify. This crap changing L101 will make Leucadia generic is pure BS. Its actually the opposite.
Karrsic,
ReplyDeleteYou must be a little car sick. Nothing new with your latest post. Blah blah blah. The facts about roundabouts are all over the web. Look it up. Throw out "Birdrockification" and your yellow underwear colors are very clear.
Some day you might actually tell us why you don't want roundabouts on L101. Meanwhile, your nannynannynanny responses tell me that my comments are getting to you. And I'm having fun laughing at your dumbass responses, so keep it up.
I'm glad you're enjoying it! Perhaps it's all you're learning, though you've yet to demonstrate that's the case. (BTW, the "I'm getting to you" line is a bit transparent. Suck it up; hang in there!)
ReplyDeleteI'm glad you've found "benefits on roundabouts" on the web. That's great! Nobody's arguing that roundabouts don't have benefits, are they? If so, can I see where? Let me answer that. Obviously, I can't. Since no one has made that argument. See, you have to be able to find someone who is making that argument, before you can claim that someone is.
See how this works? Still a work in progress, eh?
I think (some) people who don't want roundabouts feel they're not right for Leucadia. See the difference? Are there places on teh Internets that show factually that roundabouts will benefit Leucadia? Of course not.
Without needlessly upsetting you by referring to Birdrockification, there's a little hint as to why I and others believe that maybe roundabouts are not right for Leucadia. Now, I know you've already addressed this with your incredibly insightful observation that Leucadia is Leucadia and Birdrock is Birdrock.
Gotta get up pretty early in the morning to get one by you, eh AJ?
Does this mean that if A is A and B is B, one cannot compare A to B because A <> B?
LOL
There are two strong environmental points that I would like to make advocating for plan 4.
ReplyDelete1. The total stretch of the streetscape in Leucadia is 2.5 miles.
Assuming a one lane north config, for 2 miles, with a half mile of 2 lane config approaching the intersections of La Costa Ave and Leucadia Blvd. this is 10,560 liner feet multiplied by at least 12 feet of width which give you 126,720 sq. ft of what was once asphalt and impermeable surface which will now be pervious and planted with threes and shrubs.
This is 3 acres of new pervious area with landscaping that will go a long way in assisting the flooding problem in Leucadia. The plants and trees suck hugh volumes of water form the ground and the soil soaks up water as apposed to asphalt which sheets it of..
The main cause of flooding in our urban areas is asphalt and concrete and this plan will remove over 3 acres of asphalt and return it to plants and people. If you count the new center landscaped median in the south section, and improved landscaping on the ewest edge fo the street the total is well over 4acres of impermeable asphalt replaced with pervious and planted with threes and shrubs.
The recovery of over 4 acres of asphalt is huge and not talked about very much.
2. The co2 from cars stopping and starting at either streetlights or stoplights is far worse than a car going through a roundabout at a constant slower speed. I don’t know how much but I do know that the starting and stoping of cars is the worst pollution times for cars (co2 and brake pad dust) as opposed to cruising speed.
Just two more point to ponder
Fearing change is legitimate. Look at our last 8 years...the government obliterated or trampled upon all laws. So here we are, paying money to salvage bonuses. Change in Leucadia, where the street has defined it for decades, is a delicate subject. Why trust our local council to do the right thing? Has that ever happened before? Perhaps the fear is not of change but charlatans, sitting pompously blanketed by the blackout of open government.
ReplyDeleteKarrdick,
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of transparency, why don't you just admit you're a Roundabout Hater? Come on out of that closet. Don't play games like blah blah Birdrockification blah blah. That's the type of 3rd grade debate that you Roundabout Haters have been bringing to this blog since the first time the L101 Streetscape subject came up.
It's ok if you think roundabouts are not right for Leucadia. You're entitled to your opinion. But I've got bad news for you: there are already two roundabouts in Leucadia. And let me know when you want to meet at one to watch how easy traffic flows through them. We'll also be able to see how poorly the 4-way stop at Hygeia works in comparison. There will also be the several drivers that have no clue how roundabouts work (maybe some friends of yours?).
Sure, get up early. You might catch the worm.
Reality:
ReplyDeleteRoundabouts are safer for cars, walkers, and bikes.
You CAN get a large volume of traffic through a roundabout than stop signs or lights, even at a slower speed.
It is far more ecologically sound, without needless stopping, waiting and starting.
There are oppertunities for landscape beautification and art enhancement that stop sign or lights do not offer.
This is a bad thing for us???
You may not like broccoli personally, but it is still good for you and others.
blockading the 101 would be safer for walkers and bikers.
ReplyDeletegreat post
ReplyDeleteIt seems that the naythsayers never start any post with: " After attending the workshops, I believe..." or after talking to the city planners about this it appears that..."
It is their right to offer their opinion, but their opinion would certainly have more validity if they got involved with the process and were more informed with the facts.
Do I believe that '753' or 'Karrsic' are well informed with the actual issues and facts, or have attended all or any workshops or city sponsored informational meetings? No, I don't.
It is important to keep a the perspective that this is not about if your rent going up or other seflish concerns, but creating a sustainable, safe, economically viable community for future generations.
If we end up with four lanes, stop signs and roundabouts, we will not have safe bike lanes, restoration of the tree canopy on the east side, or room for needed parking.
We will certainly miss this oppertunity to solve identified issues and rents, property values will go down and the downward slide of our area will continue.
Thank you for the post.
SUPPORT ALT. 4.
"Change in Leucadia, where the street has defined it for decades, is a delicate subject. Why trust our local council to do the right thing? Has that ever happened before? Perhaps the fear is not of change but charlatans, sitting pompously blanketed by the blackout of open government."
ReplyDeleteSome good points. However, I don't think many define Leucadia by that crappy roadway. Most Leucadians definaely do not want to be defined by that roadway.
I personally define Leucadia as a treefilled Beach community with Artists and residents with open minds.
That dangerous, treeless, dustbowl roadway is like a neighborhood,gang house that you wish would eventually get sold and some knew owner would come in and renovate it so it could become another asset to the neighborhood, not it's largest deficit.
Wake Up Leucadia come out and support Alternative 4. You will have a safe, more peaceful, more beautiful Leucadia.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAJ's "arguments:"
ReplyDelete- straw man about "getting angry"
- term "birdrockification" is stupid
- you are noncommonsensical
- roundabouts are good
- you [demonstrate] stupidity
- look it up on teh Internets
- something about yellow underwear
- you must be car sick
- that's stupid
- "I'm getting to you"
- dumbass responses
- "roundabout hater"
- "karrdick"
- third grade debate
The last point is perhaps the most salient, as it clearly indicates where your "arguments" come from.
Fred, we're not talking about two blocks of improvements but the cost of streetscape for 2.5 miles for ONLY businesses on one side of the highway. There are no businesses on side streets, no access from the east, (except Leucadia Blvd) is it really worth spending mega millions. I think not, but it could be fixed up. And if you notice, no roundabouts downtown.
ReplyDeleteDowntown is spread out from Moonlight to Swami's west of the highway and City Hall to Cottonwood Park to the east. This allows it draw on a much larger demographic area of residents, tourists and businesses. Leucadia draws from the residents west of 101, Grandview Apts, seven or eight trailer parks, a bunch of funky motels, a whole lotta run down blighted apartments on Vulcan and Hermies, elitist residents of Sea Bluff in their own little world and Kahuna Bob lemmings.
It's just way to linear.
The cyclists do have a bike lane southbound, its the right hand traffic lane. I always move into the left lane to keep it open for them.
Traffic controls are included in this project so the property owners do not have to pay to mitigate their effects on Leucadia.
ReplyDelete753-
ReplyDeleteFrom your posts I have no idea what your points are about the streetscape. From what I have read I think your points are:
1. You think the streetscape will only help a few business owners with property directly adjacent to N. Coast Hwy101.
2. You like the way the roadway looks and functions today
Typically, I do not agree with 753 and Karrsic points from what I have read. But if you clearly state them, we can see what your objective is and whether we agree.
What are you issues and objective with the Streetscape?
753
ReplyDeleteEvery post you offer reeks of a lack of understanding of the goals of the project.
This is exemplified by your comments at 9:01.
This is not just for the businesses on the west side, a bike lane in the traffic lane is not what people want, this is not downtown, good caring people live in Sea Bluff, east and west of the 101 and this to benifit all of Encinitas.
I acknowledge your right to comment, but your points seem so lacking in understanding of what the purpose of this streetscape is or some other motivation.
Are you Mike Andreen?
The Streetscape sounds like it is unfortunately going the way of the Cardiff Specific Plan. How sad that our community "leaders" have decided to not pay much attention to the ordinary citizen.
ReplyDeleteKarrdick,
ReplyDeleteYou are great at cut and paste, your typos and all. Way to make your point. Your "straw man" is 753, who mentioned that having roundabouts as part of the L101 streetscape would make some people "angry". I just asked why. Look at your post of 4:14 and you'll see noncommonsensical came from a term you introduced to the conversation. Your rubbish goes on and on from there. This hasn't been an argument from the minute you posted. You've just been trying to show everyone how smart and coy you are, with the result being just the opposite, as evidenced by this part of an Anonymous comment at 9:37:
"Typically, I do not agree with 753 and Karrsic points from what I have read. But if you clearly state them, we can see what your objective is and whether we agree."
Blogs are beautiful, aren't they? Have a nice day.
Dr. Lorri-
ReplyDeleteWhy would you say that?
I haven't seen you at any of these workshops. I think the City Staff and Council is listening to the "ordinary citizen".
I have never seen a project with so many opportunities to provide input and comments, with Staff following through and summarizing the results of the workshops.
With any project you will never get 100% consensus. Just because we have a few people that do not see the value or think the motives are ill intended does not mean the majority of Leucadians and Encinitas don't see the tremendous value of this project.
I hope the City ends up with a fine streetscape plan. I am going next weekend to vote for alternative no. 4 because I believe its the best for Encinitas. I hope you will as well.
I am sorry to hear you are not pleased with the way the Cardiff Plan is coming, but why do you think the ordinary citizen has not been heard in this project?
Lori
ReplyDeleteYour statement is not true concerning the 'leaders".
How could you say that?
So sorry if I offended anyone. You are right. I have not been to the Sreetscape meetings, so I should not speak up. Me bad , as the kids say. I will stick to what I know about-which is the Cardiff Specific Plan and the Kook. If Leucadians are pleased with how it is going, then I am dead wrong in my assessment.
ReplyDeleteP.S. I would like to ask a question, however. Who exactly are the "leaders" of this community, in anyone's opinion?
ReplyDeleteI think an ex-Mayor said it best in a presentation when staff cut down trees in the name of a few condo's views while planting others in other home owner views up at Orpheous.
ReplyDeleteThe order of "leaders" in this community as far as whose opinions matter most when projects get done are
1. Staff
2. city Council
3. Citizens.
that's just the sad state of affairs in our City today. And staff likes it that way. That why they love 4 of the 5 council members. They believe in status-quo and being staffs' best friends.
I think Dr. Lori was asking for individual names, such as Rachelle Collier, Gary Murphy, Charlie Marvin, etc. Hardly anyone posts their real names on this blog, so how is anyone supposed to know who the real leaders are? I say post your name-have some cajones. Notice who does. Kevin, Dr. Lori, Peder, Fred, J.P. I am sure I have left someone out, but that's al I can think of at the moment. Any more?
ReplyDeleteWhen you disagree with City staff it is best to keep you name anonymous as next thing you know there is letter from code enforcement demanding to inspect your home you have lived in for many years. This has happened many times in the past few years. If you are liked by staff, they will bend over backwards to help you bring your non-permitted additions into compliance.
ReplyDeleteThe leaders are those who care enough to give their time to help their community. The members of Leucadia 101 Mainstreet Association come to mind amungst others. They have worked to give sidewalks, revived Leucadiart Artwalk, our farmers market, entry sign, fought NCTD, Leucadia Nights, holiday decorations, helped inform the community about the issues involved with Streetscape, got trees planted in the park, hired arborists to evaluate trees, make the pedestrian crossing safer at the tracks, fought for truth in the smear campaign from the petition and old chamber, worked with the city on behalf of the community, offered pertainent news to the community on local issues and fought for a better Leucadia and more.
ReplyDeleteThere are many others, too. And we should be thankful.
I think L101 should get their props.
The leaders are the one that do something for the community, not just blog.
Continued...
ReplyDeleteThe Leucadia Town Council cares and make a positive difference.
All those you see promoting positive programs and fighting for fairness at council meetings and taking the time to meet with city officials on behalf of Leucadia.
Those who share messages in the newspapers that are for the betterment of our area.
And all the others.
We owe our thanks.
Yep, the city uses code enforcement as their little group of Gestapo police. As a word of warning, never keep anything in your garage other than your car.
ReplyDeleteWhat do you have in your garage other than our car?? Don't answer that! What ever it may be, clean it out, they will get you.
753
ReplyDelete"The cyclists do have a bike lane southbound, its the right hand traffic lane. I always move into the left lane to keep it open for them."
Sweetie. Safe and legitimate bike lanes are designated with painted lanes. There is not one area of southbound Coast Hwy 101 within the Streetscape where the asphalt is marked "BIKE LANE". You say the right hand TRAFFIC lane is for bicycles? And that you always move left (into the fast lane) to keep the slow lane open for traffic? I've never heard of anyone doing that before. Did you come up with that safety idea yourself? Why you don't like roundabouts makes total sense to me now.
don't hurt yourself patting your own back.
ReplyDeleteMost of what the Merchants Association does HELPS THE MERCHANTS MAKE MORE MONEY.
Only a few on the mainstreet association members do things that aren't related to bringing people down to shop Leucadia. Fewer speak out when the city does naughty things.
Kevin: Your assesment is interesting. However, I am afraid you are too late, as it already has evolved into my way or the highway. You are all deluding yourselves if you think the City has not already figured out what it is going to do. Stall long enough and you will find out.
ReplyDeleteIf that’s the case, let’s hope it entails a nice walkable streetscape and not in line with keeping the roadway a dangerous hell hole which is was what a few want that enjoy a crappy mainstreet for whatever their objective.
ReplyDeleteI think I'll smoke another bong load! That'll make it ok.
ReplyDeleteI probably will not make it any worse.
ReplyDeleteThe planning process is working as we are still tinkering with the fourth Alt. The city with all it's faults has included the people actually asking for our opinion on the street scape. Myself I'm all for Alt 4 minus roundabouts at the condos.
ReplyDeleteRoundabouts work they keep traffic moving reduce emissions and reduce Harley noise. Reducing Harley noise is a good enough reason for roundabouts over stop signs or signals by itself.
I'll see all of you who want their voice heard Thursday night but please remember to listen and learn before shooting at the hip
For many its "My Way or the Unsafe Ugly Highway"
ReplyDelete101 through Leucadia was originally planned as a major highway - as mentioned previously on this blog. Conditions have changed and we have a "new" main highway. It is time to change 101 to match the "new" conditions. In fact, we are so far behind the curve, we need to jump to the best available alternative. Roundabouts have been in use all around the world successfully. The traffic calming measures and bike lanes are solely needed to avoid the now existing dangerous conditions. The only way to get everything we need is one Northbound lane [ I would think everyone would agree one Southbound lane is not an option]. Though the use of roundabouts seems to be the major bone of contention, they have worked well on Leucadia [I drive them all the time}. They will work even better when everybody gets used to them. I believe this will be the case on 101. Let's go with plan 4.
ReplyDeleteMy wife recently visited the Birdrock area to see how the roundabouts/improvements worked for them. She was impressed by the improved traffic flow, improved visual impact, and positive responses from the businesspeople she was in contact with. Not a scientific poll, I agree, but real results appear to be there. Using similar techniques to Birdrock doesn't mean we are attempting to turn Leucadia into Birdrock - it simply means we are going to use the best known available methods to apply to our problem. Radical change is necessary here only because we have ignored the problem for so long. If you wanted incremental change [stop signs signals, etc.], you should have lobbied for them sooner. We need change and we need it now.
NATIVES SPECIES!!!!
ReplyDelete8:39 is completely wrong.
ReplyDeleteOur current mainstreet was originally a dirt wagon path and was a local road from the 1900s through the 1940s.
It was only changed to a four lane road when it was the main highway from SD to LA. I5 is not the main highway since 1967. Its time to reclaim our local road and make it work for us not against us.
Support Alternative No. 4 it accomplishes those objectives.
Of Course 8:39 was only wrong on the roadway designation issue. The rest of the post was great!
ReplyDeleteWas does subpalace Ray want a Redevelopment District for Leucadia and why does he not like trees?
ReplyDeleteWhy is it his way or the highway?
Yep,
ReplyDeleteWe came within a knats wisker of having Hwy 5 coming right throgh Leucadia, downtown and Cardiff.
Can you amigine that?
Syd Shaw and Paul Ecke among others teamed up to opposse and routed I-5 to the east.
Dead bob, welcome back!
"[ I would think everyone would agree one Southbound lane is not an option]. "
ReplyDeleteI don't agree. One lane in each direction works great in birdrock and they have higher traffic counts.
Two lanes southbound is a compromise to the whiners in Leucadia. If it was planned correctly, it would be one lane in each direction which would give plenty of room for planted parkways and medians, canopy trees, needed parking, and ample bike lanes and walkways.
I understand why two lanes south is being pushed, but its not the best solution.
8:36
ReplyDeleteIt might lead to dancing.
A live Bob said mix natives and non-natives. Diversity is good!
ReplyDelete8:38 and 9:41 are completely wrong.
ReplyDeleteOriginally, there was no wagon trail at all. Just a scorched desert. Hey, maybe NCTD's into history after all.
But, 8:39 and 9:41 are completely right about Alt. #4.
It's amusing to read how many (if not most) of the posters here think the original post pertains exclusively to their opponents. (Nice self-awareness.)
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I love roundabouts. I think they're great. (I live by one.) I've always liked them. I liked driving through the 4 lane versions in Italy (where lanes are ignored), competing against bicyclists, moped-riders, crazy local drivers and tourists.
I like the roundabouts in Birdrock. I like the restaurants and pubs and the walking-friendly neighborhood.
Recreating that in Leucadia is an option. It's an option I would completely understand people desiring.
It's also an option I completely understand people not wanting.
For the former to not respect the values of the latter (and vice versa), is one example of the type of impasse the subject of the original post attempts to address.
IMO, declaring that such a design in Leucadia will never become like Birdock, is either willfully obtuse or Pollyannaish.
The Birdrock project was very successful and both businesses and residents I know like the result. It was not without controversy, however; controversy that would likely (IMO) repeat itself here.
If you have been opposed to some of the previous Encinitas condo projects, prepare to be so again. If you have fought variances granted developers, e.g. for height, prepare to do so again. If you stand to benefit from increased property values, congratulations, but gone are those that cannot afford to live in such an area. If you like shopping at the existing stores, be prepared to go where they relocate, since many of them will be unable to afford the new leases.
Opposing the roundabouts is a position equally valid to those who are proponents. I agree that there are (potential) benefits to traffic flow, pedestrian and bicycling safety,the environment, community, tax revenue, etc.
There are also potential pitfalls worthy of consideration, including high rents, design issues, developer free-for-alls, gentrification, unforeseen traffic problems and an influx of chain stores and restaurants.
BTW, out of curiosity, aren't the roundabouts 1 lane roundabouts? So do the 2 southbound lanes merge into 1 at each roundabout?
ROUNDABOUTS are successfully in use throughout the world and being implemented all over the country for so many compelling reasons. Maybe it's time to learn more about their benefits!?!
ReplyDeleteRoundabout Tutorial:
1) They move MORE vehicle volume than do stop and go stop signs and stop lights.
2) They slow people down. When drivers slow down, they actually SEE more...they see store fronts (e.g. benefit to local merchants)they see pedestrians, they see bikers. They get more out of life by slowing down.
3) Roundabouts create fewer friction/conflict points. This equates to fewer traffic accidents, collisions and fatalities. Stop signs and stop lights have more friction points.
(Just today I saw 3 cars run 3 different red lights at a 4 way signal on El Camino Real. Aye.)
4) Roundabouts are cleaner and greener than stop lights.
a. cars don't stop at roundabouts
b. cars don't idle at roundabouts
= Cleaner Air!
5) Roundabouts make for a quieter community. By having to slow down some and pay attention AND without stopping and starting continually, our community will have reduced "noise" that many residents who live near 101 constantly complain about.
6) Roundabouts cost less to maintain than traffic lights.
7) Roundabouts have no abnoxious glare, flickering for those who see them from their homes/businesses.
Thanks for taking the time to digest this factual and proven information.
Sources:
-City of San Diego Senior Traffic Engineer;
http://www.walksandiego.org/pages/facts.html
-Time Magazine
"It's amusing to read how many (if not most) of the posters here think the original post pertains exclusively to their opponents. (Nice self-awareness.)"
ReplyDeleteMy guess is that the portion of comment I've quoted above is in reference to the single paragraph in the middle of the original post that says "Most of the time residents of Encinitas can be very tolerant and respectful of others. We can find unfortunate exceptions here on this blog." I take this to mean that Kevin considers some of the comments on this blog to be disrespectful. But to repurpose some other words of Kevin's, how we express ourselves is "going to differ in a diverse, independent-minded, and thoughtful community." I consider the variety of comments to be one of the best parts of this blog, crude and profane as some of us might be. I liken reading this blog to taking a trip to the Leucadian or Keno's and am not offended if things get a little off-color.
"...declaring that such a design in Leucadia will never become like Birdock, is either willfully obtuse or Pollyannaish."
I haven't driven through Birdrock in a long time, and haven't ever since the roundabouts were installed. But I looked at it with google maps and have confirmed that, in fact, Birdrock is Birdrock, whereas Leucadia is Leucadia.
For example, Birdrock doesn't have a railroad corridor that runs parallel to--and creates a border with--the road that has the roundabouts. There is absolutely no comparison, nor will there ever be any, between L101 and La Jolla Blvd. Furthermore, Solana Beach isn't like Pacific Beach and the traffic from Ponto/La Costa Avenue will not be like La Jolla for a while. Pollyanna and Obtuse just left the building.
AJ-
ReplyDeleteI know Leucadia will never be like Bird Rock, although I wish we had a break like Bird Rock off of Leucadia, but you should take a drive through the Hwy101 birdrock mainstreet of today.
Talk to the residents. You will be amazed at positive transformation of that previously blighted mainstreet area. Its very pleasant and peaceful with tons of bird rock residents out enjoying their downtown.
I sure hope Leucadia can enjoy the same benefits of a more safe, pleasant and peaceful mainstreet.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAJ:
ReplyDelete"I haven't driven through Birdrock in a long time, and haven't ever since the roundabouts were installed. But I looked at it with google maps and have confirmed that, in fact, Birdrock is Birdrock, whereas Leucadia is Leucadia."
Uh, that would clearly qualify as willfully obtuse. The latter word is perhaps not yet in the 3rd grade lexicon, but you can, you know, look it up. Ask your mom for help one day after school.
Karrsic,
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry to report that my mom expired many years ago, so I cannot inquire with her as to the meaning of your triangular logic. I know how much you love the line Leucadia is Leucadia and Birdrock is Birdrock so tossed it out again just for you. You swallowed it, hook, line and sinker.
Why don't you come back when you've got something to add to the the conversation.